For our Monday Moment, take a moment to look at the #auddev chat we had on Friday, 3/23. We were having a discussion about professional/amateur audience perceptions. Do audiences perceive the differences? Are they willing to pay more for “professional?” How do we define “professional” vs. “amateur” anyway? Why are some amateur companies funded as well as professional groups? If “professional” means being paid, how do we factor in “guest artists” into the equation? There were other questions and issues that came up as well. One of the questions that didn’t come up is why are some “amateur” groups doing better than “professional” groups in terms of audience and funding? and Why are they considered in the same pool for various grants? Should they be separately funded? They are all “non-profits” despite “professional” or “amateur.”
What is your stance on these issues? Please feel free to comment in the reply box below!
| From User | Tweet |
| AudienceDevSpec | Welcome to #auddev chat! Today I am here with @maricarjagger events organisation and marketing professional out of Portsmouth, UK. |
| AudienceDevSpec | Hi @maricarjagger #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Please use the hashtag #auddev to chat with us. |
| RachealMc | MT @audiencedevspec: Welcome to #auddev chat! I’m here with @maricarjagger events organisation & marketing profess. out of Portsmouth, UK. |
| AudienceDevSpec | The main question is: Do people differentiate going to professional vs amateur performances? #auddev |
| RachealMc | RT @audiencedevspec: Please use the hashtag #auddev to chat with us. |
| AudienceDevSpec | RT @maricarjagger: Yes. The question is whether we should differentiate between amateur and professional events through pricing. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger So, meaning that the price of professional should reflect a higher price? #auddev |
| RachealMc | RT @audiencedevspec: The main question is: Do people differentiate going to professional vs amateur performances? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Right now I think there is all sorts of murky blur lines happening between “professional” and “amateur”. #auddev |
| THEATREtc | RT @RachealMc: RT @audiencedevspec: The main question is: Do people differentiate going to professional vs amateur performances? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec That’s recently come up here in Toronto with a vengeance. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc Can you give me an example? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec Our Actor’s Assn attempted a protest of one of our largest production companies over bringing in a non-union tour #auddev |
| Silagh | Yes, audiences do have different perceptions between professional and amateur productions. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc Yes, the Union issue comes into play in this discussion. Were they charging the same ticket price too? #auddev |
| maricarjagger | RT @AudienceDevSpec: Please use the hashtag #auddev to chat with us. |
| AudienceDevSpec | What also gets blurry is who is to define who is professional and who is amateur. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @silagh they do have different perceptions, but the question is what classifies amateur vs. professional? #Auddev |
| JessieRelephant | RT @AudienceDevSpec: The main question is: Do people differentiate going to professional vs amateur performances? #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @RachealMc I didn’t event think of the Union as part of the equation! Interesting #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | There are companies that say they are professional, but the quality may not be. Will the audiences know the difference? #auddev |
| Silagh | Some audiences expect lots of parents with video cameras at amateur performances. Even if not kids in show. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec In the US being non-union does not automatically mean amateur, but it does here and the stigma’s huge. #auddev |
| RachealMc | Absolutely. RT @maricarjagger: @AudienceDevSpec Should we price a professional show more than an amateur show? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc Wow, so in Canada there actually is a standard based on “Union”? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec 100%. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @RachealMc We were discussing recently whether a ‘professional musician’ necessarily one who has a degree in music #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc The lines completely blur in the US. I have been to amateur performances in one city that are professional in others #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec Yes, they were charging a comparable ticket price. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec It becomes trickier because it was originally a US union tour & got downgraded before it arrived here. #Auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc How does one get into the Union then? Are there quality standards or just a fee to pay? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec @RachealMc some of the most gifted & skilled musicians I know don’t. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @RachealMc I suppose there lies the difficulty with pricing! #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Will an audience member choose a higher price ticket for the perceived extra quality? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec When I lived in Miami it was like that, same for my experience in Houston. #Auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger @RachealMc I have seen the same pricing for amateur/professional. #auddev |
| RachealMc | Great question. RT @audiencedevspec: Will an audience member choose a higher price ticket for the perceived extra quality? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | This also relates to grants and other funding as well. #auddev |
| clydefitch | Pivots on what “extra quality” is, no? MT @audiencedevspec: Will audiences choose higher price tickets for perceived extra quality? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec It’s much easier to get into CAEA than AEA. I got in with a letter. Many ADs won’t even look at a non Eq resume. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @clydefitch So defining quality is an issue as well. #auddev |
| RRCreative | RT @AudienceDevSpec: Will an audience member choose a higher price ticket for the perceived extra quality? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc Union is a matter of having a company claim they are professional? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I do feel a professional company has the choice of pricing higher than their local amateur company. We pay more in other industries. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | It gets tricky when amateur companies price on the higher side, then the professional company may be pricing too high for audience. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | RT @AudienceDevSpec: Will an audience member choose a higher price ticket for the perceived extra quality? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I know that professional companies that I consider professional get frustrated when amateurs call themselves professional. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | RT @maricarjagger: A concert by a world renowned chamber group £15 & last week a local piano teacher charges £15 for her concert. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger Was the chamber group upset by this? #auddev |
| maricarjagger | A concert by a world renowned chamber group is £15 here and last week a local piano teacher charges £15 for her concert. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Some Unions require an audition to get in, but some are fee based from what I am seeing/hearing. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec As a promoter, I was! We were careful to make sure the prices are affordable, but what is affordable? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger Most reports point out that $25 or under is “affordable”. People will pay more for what they want. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | What is also interesting is sometimes the amateur groups get more of an audience than the professional ones. #auddev |
| RachealMc | MT @maricarjagger: @AudienceDevSpec …We were careful to make sure the prices are affordable, but what is affordable? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @clydefitch An amateur group can have a star show up too. #auddev |
| clydefitch | @audiencedevspec Also, wouldn’t you agree “extra value” varies (or differs) by genre, setting, time of year, magnitude? #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec That begs the question whether less people will want it if the event is more expensive? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec @maricarjagger That is a key question. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec I’ve worked with companies where the gross over spending & wastage is sickening. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger That is a major question to consider. People will spend money on what they value. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I think it is about asking your audience for their perceptions before you price. What is worth it to them? #auddev |
| RachealMc | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec The costs are then passed on to the audience & they wonder why people complain of high prices. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc @maricarjagger So some professional companies don’t have to price as high if not wasteful. Good point! #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec I’m sure they will value something they know well and that means ‘touring’ artists cannot win #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger Great point, which is why #auddev is so important so they get to know! |
| maricarjagger | In the case of the local pianist I do realise there’s an element of ‘who you know’ determining attendance. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec @RachealMc @maricarjagger I think we all need to be realistic about the economy & spending patterns. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | So the audience needs to perceive as valuable to them and see the value in the extra cost of the ticket. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I do wish there were more standards for “professional” “amateur”. Being subjective, it may never happen. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec Are we saying that cultural offering need some longevity to afford time for audience development? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger I’m not sure I completely understand your question. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Join us for #auddev chat! |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec Audience development needs time, right? #auddev |
| dloehr | @AudienceDevSpec The reason my theatre co. uses “professional” is simply to distinguish between hobby & vocation. We also tour. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact Interesting, so now we have more labels in the mix. LOL! #auddev |
| RachealMc | RT @audiencedevspec: I do wish there were more standards for “professional” “amateur”. Being subjective, it may never happen. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @dloehr Do we have a list to define professional vs. amateur though. Couldn’t an amateur company tour. If they get a little pay…#auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec While not a fan of over-labeling, I think this one fills a definite need & eliminates some confusion. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I see some professional companies say they are community oriented, which also gets a little tricky. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @dloehr So your definition is if this is your job (not hobby) then you are a professional? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact Semi-pro is a label in the music world that is similar. #auddev |
| dloehr | @AudienceDevSpec We tour outside of the region, though. Our community group is largely shop owners, people with day jobs… #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec The trickiness lies in the polyvalence of the word “community,” here used in a diff way than “community thtr” #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger @dloehr Right now, people piece together their income, so if they are paid, could be one of their jobs. #auddev |
| dloehr | @AudienceDevSpec …who can’t afford to take the time away from those jobs. #auddev |
| RachealMc | RT @dloehr: @AudienceDevSpec The reason my theatre co. uses “professional” is simply to distinguish between hobby & vocation… #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @dloehr @AudienceDevSpec Other issue is that many working at small thtrs of our own for no/low pay are pros working at larger thtrs #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | MT @clydefitch: Often I feel amateur vs. professional = issue for professionals, not amateurs. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @clydefitch Really great point! #auddev |
| dloehr | @AudienceDevSpec But we try to work with them whenever possible; there’s no class warfare here, just different goals. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @dloehr I know professionals that can’t afford it either. LOL! #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @dloehr @AudienceDevSpec “Amateur” and “professional” are inaccurate when tied only to pay grade in the arts #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Here’s a monkey wrench, a professional could (and does sometimes) work for an “amateur” company. #auddev |
| dloehr | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger I’m only talking about my town’s community group in terms of touring, btw. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @clydefitch You can use the #auddev hashtag. You have great points for everyone! |
| dloehr | @melissaimpact @AudienceDevSpec Right. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @clydefitch It’s money and income, it’s close to everyone’s heart! #auddev |
| RachealMc | RT @melissaimpact: @dloehr @AudienceDevSpec “Amateur” and “professional” are inaccurate when tied only to pay grade in the arts #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | RT @clydefitch Also, what defines amateur/professional? Most professional actors don’t live off their work but never ID as amateur. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @clydefitch If you trained for years and pay lots of money for college, do you want to earn less that the hobbyist? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | There are some groups in my town that claim to be pro, but quality wise, they really are not in MHO. #auddev |
| dloehr | @melissaimpact @AudienceDevSpec Tho I didn’t–and don’t–use the term “amateur.” #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec I this case I have no quibble with them if they charge less for tix #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I think it is some of our perception that amateur are “stealing away” from professional that is the basis. Am I right? #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec Not sure you can tie “professional” to quality-All it covers is whether this is your career as opposed to a hobby #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger We would need to first establish who is pro and am and then figure out pricing as an industry. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec as “Guest Artists” I would say almost all performers have done it here. #auddev |
| clydefitch | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec Obviously not. I’m not celebrating the amateur vs. professional divide, I’m acknowledging it exists. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact However, there are “amateurs” that can produce professional work. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @dloehr @AudienceDevSpec Me neither–I think most thtr pros do not. It’s “professional,” “professionally-oriented,” and “community” #auddev |
| RachealMc | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec @clydefitch When I interviewed Brian Dennehy, he said theatre school was… #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact I have performed in some “community” groups that were as good if not better than “professional” #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec and that is difficult to establish and also regulate #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact Don’t they deserve to charge more then? #auddev |
| dloehr | @melissaimpact @AudienceDevSpec Yup. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec @clydefitch … the absolute worst thing an actor could do. #Auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact Oh I agree about the label, but they could charge more because they are awesome! ;O) #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @RachealMc @AudienceDevSpec @clydefitch In a sense you’re right, going to school doesn’t prove you have talents…#auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact We were talking about ticket pricing in all this as well though. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec Pricing isn’t just abt quality or value–often we price low b/c we’re trying to remain accessible. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @RachealMc So the price of that “guest artist” ticket for the amateur group would go up. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec Pricing is about accessibility more than quality for most of us, I think #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | RT @melissaimpact: @AudienceDevSpec Pricing is about accessibility more than quality for most of us, I think #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec Big pro thtrs make a minority of income as earned, majority as contributed #auddev |
| RaymondMcNeel | @clydefitch @AudienceDevSpec Per the Latin, an amateur does something for “the love”. (Oh, and Charlie Sheen is a professional.) #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec generally, the prices would be the same. The company would budget for the extra costs. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger @melissaimpact So true! But then, this could make the ticket price equal to the amateur price. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @melissaimpact @AudienceDevSpec Our prof concerts are accessible by ticket price, but not covering the full cost of the musicians #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger Pricing more abt marketing than abt income for nonprofit thtrs–majority of their $ is contributed #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @clydefitch @rachealmc @maricarjagger Plus, amateur companies can be non-profit too. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec That’s the case for almost every 501c3 arts org in the country. High price isn’t a marker of quality #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @maricarjagger @AudienceDevSpec Low price isn’t marker of amateur. Big co.s use a plethora of price pts, some very low for outreach #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec @clydefitch @maricarjagger As can professional companies up here. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger Big LORTs use lprice pts equal to smaller co.s as part of various outreach efforts all the time #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact @maricarjagger So if the price isn’t an indication, which we have established, will the audience get it? LOL! #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger Will they get what? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact @maricarjagger The price is the same for both pro and ama. So, will they understand who is who? #auddev |
| clydefitch | @rachealmc @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger Curiously, it’s theatre that forever thrashes these issues. Er, amateur folk art, anyone? #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @melissaimpact @maricarjagger We may not see price as a distinguishing value, but our audiences might. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger I think that’s true to a certain extent, depending on the marketing & culture of the producing org #auddev |
| RachealMc | RT @audiencedevspec: @melissaimpact @maricarjagger We may not see price as a distinguishing value, but our audiences might. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger Big co.s offer luxury exp at high price pt- better seats, etc– outreach at lower price pts. I think #auddev |
| Becca_E_Smith | @RaymondMcNeel @clydefitch @AudienceDevSpec love that, but what abt pros? Is a pro in it for the $ or just some1 who gets paid? #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger the marketing of the experience is key. Are you there for a luxury exp? Or are you there to #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @Becca_E_Smith @RaymondMcNeel @clydefitch That’s a new kettle of fish there! #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @clydefitch @rachealmc Ego aside I think the important issue here is whether a pro can compete in the marketplace #auddev |
| clydefitch | @audiencedevspec @RachealMc @maricarjagger No more than boiling complex, nuanced socioeconomic trends to 140-word tweets. #auddev |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec @clydefitch @maricarjagger @clydefitch I think ego plays in any industry. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | @maricarjagger I think you just rang the ding, ding, ding bell with that one! #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger see something cool you can share w/friends? The same big co can offer varying experiences #auddev |
| clydefitch | @audiencedevspec @RachealMc @maricarjagger More seriously, for some it’s totally tied to ego. Others don’t fret about labels. #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger A GREAT example of this kind of varied experience/varied price point is @berkeleyrep #auddev |
| melissaimpact | @AudienceDevSpec @maricarjagger This convo is so interesting, but I have to go teach! Loathe to leave you brilliant ppl. Thank you! #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I think @clydefitch is right. All labels aside, it is going to come down to what is great & what is good. #auddev |
| clydefitch | @becca_e_smith @RaymondMcNeel @AudienceDevSpec I don’t think pro = monolithic mindset. Tho most people don’t turn down $, generally. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | It’s been a quick, intense and interesting hour at #auddev chat. |
| AudienceDevSpec | Thank you to: @clydefitch @melissaimpact @RachealMc @maricarjagger @Becca_E_Smith @RaymondMcNeel @dloehr for stopping by! #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @melissaimpact We can reconvene the conversation another time with @AudienceDevSpec #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Feel free to keep chatting at #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | I will have a transcript of this conversation on my blog Monday morning. #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec @clydefitch @melissaimpact @RachealMc @Becca_E_Smith @RaymondMcNeel @dloehr Thank you all for the eye-opener on #auddev |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec Thanks for hosting! #auddev |
| Becca_E_Smith | @AudienceDevSpec thanks for hosting! #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | We know that professional and amateur are clearly challenging to define. Price is not the indicative factor either. #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | What will ring true is not the labels, but the quality of the work. Everything else is merely technicality in MHO. #auddev ;O) |
| RachealMc | @audiencedevspec @clydefitch @melissaimpact @RachealMc @maricarjagger @Becca_E_Smith @RaymondMcNeel @dloehr Thank you all! #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | Whew! That was a fantastic conversation. We now return to our normal #auddev hashtag. |
| AudienceDevSpec | .@maricarjagger Thank you for the topic! #auddev |
| AudienceDevSpec | If you have a topic for #auddev chat, please contact me. |
| clydefitch | Thanks to: @AudienceDevSpec @melissaimpact @RachealMc @maricarjagger @Becca_E_Smith @RaymondMcNeel #auddev #FF |
| maricarjagger | @AudienceDevSpec Fascinating subject and I look forward to more #auddev sessions |
Cheers to happy and loyal audiences,
Shoshana
Shoshana Fanizza
Audience Development Specialists
http://www.buildmyaudience.com
“Never treat your audience as customers, always as partners.”
~James Stewart
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I agree that trying to define Pro/Am by qualitative outcome is futile, and as a consequence ticket pricing cannot be determined by pro/am status. There are some pretty awful ‘pro’ orchs out there and some brilliant ‘am’ and youth orchs. Years ago I began defining pro/am according to means: Pro = your full-time income from a full-time job, Am = you have something else that provides your primary income and consistently requires dedicated time. As a result I expect a lot more from pro’s but pay the same top $ for top quality, regardless of pro/am status.
As for ego… well!
Thank you for stopping by, Stephen.
I know how difficult it would be set standards and quality control. The audience will find out rather quickly if the price of the ticket is worth it in either case (pro/am).
However, the definition of professional is still murky since many musicians are now piecing together their lives to make a living, which means some outside work of some nature for the most part. Yet, I would still consider these musicians to be professional. Is there a percentage of pay scale set up to work out this definition?
Here’s the bigger issue, which I mentioned in a past blog: https://audiencedevelopment.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/audience-development-and-quality/
The perceived quality of a “professional” organization can actually play a part in ruining the arts experience for an audience member. If the quality is not there, they may feel that “professional” is a bunch of malarkey, and this perception could carry over to the arts in general. When organizations dub themselves as professional, people expect a higher quality to go with it. It is sad when some of these “professional” organizations/artist do not deliver, which ruins it for the ones that do.